This week on The Ministry Growth Show, we’re joined by Dr. John Jackson, President of Jessup University and Author of the book Grace Ambassador. In this episode, John shares his insights on engaging with a relative or experiential truth cultural worldview around the gospel. We also spend some time discussing the future of higher education in an ever-growing digital age. Apologies if the audio quality isn’t as good in this episode. We had a power outage during our call, but we were able to salvage most of the content.
Relevant Resources:
Grace Ambassador: Bringing Heaven to Earth
Jessup University
Transcription:
SPEAKERS: Zachary Leighton, John
Zachary Leighton
Welcome back to the ministry growth show. Today on the show, I’m going to be talking with Dr. John Jackson. He’s the president of Jessup University. John, thanks for being on the show.
John
Hey, Zack, thank you. I love the title of your show. And I love the fact that you have an audience that wants to talk about ministry growth that is near and dear to my heart.
Zachary Leighton
Awesome. Yeah, I’m excited to have you. So can you tell us a little bit about Jessup University? What you guys why you guys exist. And what makes Jessup maybe unique?
John
Yeah, thanks a lot, Zack. So first of all, Jessup started in 1939. As a Bible college, San Jose Bible college, then became San Jose Christian College, and then in 2004, moved from the Bay Area over to the Sacramento region. So one of the things that makes us unique is that we are the only Christ-centered university within about a three-hour radius. So we touch the Bay Area, we touch the Sacramento region, Northern Nevada, near Reno, and then down into central California. So our location is distinct. That’s the first thing. Second thing I’ll tell you is that we are deeply committed to having what we call a gospel worldview, very biblically grounded. And Zach, you probably know this, and maybe your listeners do, a lot of times schools start out as Christian, and they have kind of religious foundations. And you can maybe even still take classes in a religion department. But we do what’s called Faith integration across every perspective. So I’ve been fortunate to be here 13 years when I first came, no math, no arts, except for music, no sciences, no graduate programs, no online. But thankfully, we now have tripled in size last 13 years, we have all that. And faith integration, a gospel worldview, a biblical foundation is in every one of our subjects. And maybe last thing, Zack is that we’re really committed to engaging with culture, like we want, we have clear biblical foundations, but our whole kind of tagline here is equipped and known. We want people equipped to become who God created them to be to find their life purpose, and then to be a transformational leaders in culture. So the way we do that is that we’re known we’re known by God, and we’re known by our faculty, if you come to Jessup as a student, graduate or undergraduate, online or on ground, your professors will know you by name.
Zachary Leighton
I went to I didn’t tell you this offline. But I went to Vanguard University in Southern California and played baseball for them. And then post college. Actually, I don’t know why I didn’t bring this up. But we I’ve coached assistant coach the baseball team at Jessup, and helped out there,
John
Zach, first of all, I gotta interrupt you, you’re killing me. I wanted to be a pro baseball player. And at age 15, I figured out I was good, but not great. You got to go on to the next level love Vanguard. We have good friends down there. And thanks for actually assistant coach, our baseball team. I didn’t know that. Yeah, it
Zachary Leighton
was it was a fun. It was a fun year, then I started having kids and was not able to keep up with those commitments. But it was, it was a fun year. But yeah, it’s baseball is a big part of my upbringing, and, and story. And I mean, really, the literally the only reason I went to college, and then somehow found myself into the ministry space, because much of what I what I learned and experienced in college and and so it’s been, it’s been quite a journey from athlete to five working in the ministry world. So that’s awesome. And I want to engage in culture. I want to explore that a little bit further. But I think it’ll be more relevant as we get to the second half of our discussion. But can you describe so let’s focus on these first sets of questions. Can you describe some of the unique challenges that come with leading a Christian university, especially in a state? We’ll say, as diverse and complex as California, and how do you navigate those challenges?
John
Yeah. Well, thanks for First of all, recognizing sometimes I’ll talk about higher ed, faith based higher ed. And then I’ll talk about faith based higher ed in California, because if you’re in California and you’re not in Tennessee, or Texas, or Idaho, or one of the other more friendly states of California is the sometimes the leading edge, or I would call it the bleeding edge of a progressive kind of agenda. And it’s a challenge that sometimes leading to college like this means that we get attacked frontally it’s not uncommon for our regional newspaper to be upset at something we’ve done or, or tried to do but but some of the challenges are frontal attacks from culture where they’re upset about our, our biblical convictions are sincerely held religious beliefs or they’re upset with a policy that we have that comes out of those beliefs. But other times, Zack, the pressure is is less frontal. And it’s more just a subtle pressure in the classroom. It’s, we’re not a faith statement Schools Act. So probably a third of our students don’t have a relationship with Christ. Our students are what I would call cultural Christians. And then a third of our students are on fire for the Lord. Probably not too different, by the way, from what you’d find a lot of churches aware you got folks who are coming to church, but they don’t really have a relationship with Jesus, they may have a religious background or something like that. So the pressures are sometimes in the classroom or the dorms or on the sports teams. And sometimes the pressures are more frontal. But sometimes I think about it this way, Zach, and I hope this will encourage your listeners, you know, name a city in the United States where you think it’s hard to be a Christian, whatever city you would come up with, let’s for my purposes, let’s say, San Francisco, it’s hard to be a follower of Jesus in San Francisco, do you really think it’s harder to be a follower of Jesus in San Francisco than in Corinth, or Ephesus, or Rome? I mean, being a Christian in the first century, when the New Testament was being written and lived out, was absolutely an uphill climb, a upstream kind of journey. And you know that because your background, there’s Christians right now across the planet, where they’re being persecuted, and they can’t get jobs, they can’t get education, and occasionally, they’re becoming martyred. You know, there’s there’s martyrs in present day reality for following Jesus. So when I gotta face a newspaper editor that’s upset at me or somebody who is in a classroom frustrated with our policies. That’s a small price to pay to follow Jesus and the way we’ve tried to respond, Zach tried to respond with love and grace, but be full of grace and truth.
Zachary Leighton
That’s good. Yeah, well, and you mentioned some of those other schools that might have had faith based backgrounds, I think about the Harvard’s, and the Yale’s in the Oxford’s, that all started out as biblical schools. That’s right, and really been focused on missions work. And now, how that that has transferred how that transition is since transpired over the decades into what it is today, it’s it’s that whole idea of mission creep, and how do you stay on track and stay in alignment with your original core values and vision for for education systems, specifically, in our in this context?
John
That’s good. People who study history will know this, I think it’s all but one of the Ivy League schools, were started to train pastors to train minister, right. And in our day, when I’m talking to parents, I wrote a small little tiny book called choosing a college, the right choice, choosing a college and why it matters. And I said, if you do decide to go to a public university, you know, here’s some things to think about. A lot of times people will go to a private religious College because it’s religious. But religion department is literally just a department. And faith is not integrated across the curriculum. So it’s so important for parents, for students to look carefully and say, what’s the spiritual atmosphere of the place that I’m going to? And I think, Zach, that’s just absolutely critical for people to know, the culture. I don’t know if I choose a college today without making an in person visit, sit in the class, listen to some faculty read the materials and and talk to everyday students, not the people. And I say this adjust that, by the way, not just the people who are giving you the tour, because they’re going to show you all the nice stuff, try to talk to really everyday real students, ask them what they’re experiencing, and pay attention to the writing. And speaking that’s done the university. Yeah,
Zachary Leighton
I think I heard a quote maybe from Prager, you that said that. Five out of six kids that come out of university share their parents values that they went into school with, and that’s obviously a more of a conservative political statement. But I think you’re seeing that within within higher education and even inside of Christian schools across the country, too. So I
John
can be a little bold. We had a Dennis Prager loved Dennis Prager. We had Dennis Prager on our campus last week, and he and I had a really good I got to interview him. And then by the way, I got to pray for him at the end, which was wonderful, but I will say this. I think that universities have been the seminaries of culture for the last 50 years. And when you think about 1970s forward, it’s the universities that have been training up the folks who are now the leaders of culture and so many of the quote and progressive or left edge or woke agenda kind of folks. It was University where they kind of got off track and where they got religiously raised up in those worldviews that are so destructive to faith. Yeah, even I was thinking about Harvard, you just mentioned Harvard, you know, the motto of Harvard being Veritas or truth. Always Zack, I’ll probably take us off on a tangent here. But we’ve gone from absolute truth, to relative truth, but we’re not even in relative truth anymore, where it’s culture and context that determines truth. That’s what relative to this. We’re actually in experiential truth, whatever my truth is, yes, true for me, and whatever your truth is, is true for you. And I think that’s even beyond what a relative truth is, I think we’re into that experiential truth. And boy, so dangerous, and so corrupting of the ultimate reality of what it means to be a follower of Christ and to base your life on the authority of the Word of God.
Zachary Leighton
Yeah, that’s good. Transitioning a little bit, what are some of the trends that you see are seeing in higher education as things become more and more digital? So with organizations like a theosophy you becoming ever increasingly more popular? How are you guys navigating those kinds of digital shifts, especially for higher education and maybe innovating for those changes? In a, I would say, a dramatically changing world?
John
You’re absolutely right, Zack, and it’s such a great question. I think that COVID 19 was a revealer. And an accelerator, it revealed a lot of things about people and families and businesses and governments and structures, medical care, etc. But it also accelerated some things. So the fact that we’re able to have this conversation using technology is very commonplace now. So in college, three issues that I’ve been dealing with for my entire tenure here is cost, value and debt, what’s the cost of college? What’s the value of college? And then how much debt do I have upon graduation? Those are huge, important subjects. So what digital is doing for us, is allowing us to reduce the cost of higher ed. So I’m give you a couple things at Jessup, for instance, our average graduate graduates with 1/3, the debt 1/3, less, excuse me, 1/3, less the debt of the national average. And we’re working to make it one half. That’s one of our stated strategic goals. One of the ways we do that is that almost all of our traditional undergraduate These are kids who are 18 to 25. They’re taking classes during the daytime on campus, almost all of our students take a portion of their degrees online. Two thirds of our online users are traditional students taking one or two classes a semester online, what that’s doing is we’ve kept our prices stable for the last four years. As ACC, you know, what inflation has happened for last four years. But Jessup has not raised its price for four consecutive years. And I’m pretty certain we’re not going to raise our prices for the next year or two. And we’re going to do that even though there’s a huge challenge for that. But part of how we’re doing that is some portion of education is being delivered digitally now in a way that it didn’t before. And that’s a lower cost. Here’s the second way, a textbooks as you mentioned, the ICU we’re seeing more and more digital resources available. This will date me a lot. But when I was graduating from college, I didn’t have any money, but people gave me some money. And one of the things I did grant I had an undergraduate degree in Christian history and thought religion, and I bought a set of Kiddle k i t t e l that was a big huge Greek resource 10 volumes. I think I remember it was $140 It used to be like five or 600 Well Kiddle is now 100% All available digitally you would never need if you didn’t want to, to buy that set of volumes you could get it digitally for much less cost and so that’s what’s happening is amazing resources. And I still like printed books, by the way for a lot of things but amazing digital resources and it’s making college more accessible size of our library right now. Zach does not matter in terms of physical volumes. We have 1000s but we have hundreds and hundreds of 1000s if not millions of resources available digitally.
Zachary Leighton
Cool. Yeah, it’s it’s why out to see this SIFT, it’s been interesting to follow the LSU. And what they’re doing over there with that seminary level training for what, like $13 a month. I mean, it’s crazy. Yeah. And, and you’re, it’s good to hear that you guys are thinking through that and trying to innovate in that space and keep up with those trends. Because that is, it is going to affect the university system, whether we like it or not, I don’t see how it all obviously already is. But that trend will continue. And if universities don’t get on board and, and make adjustments to some of those changes, it’s it’s going to be a sad day, and it’s coming faster than I think we all want.
John
And I think you’re right, and I’ll even say this, I think we’re moving Zach, this is a larger trend than just digital, we’re moving to just in time education. I was the odd duck in my generation back in the late 70s, early 80s, I did education, and college and seminary and eventually my doctorate all the while working full time. Now I’m not saying that was healthy. I’m not saying that was the best painful memories of back then working in churches and, and going full time to seminary. But I was learning and doing and learning while doing simultaneously I think what’s going to happen now is that people are going to come and get some training, and get a job and get more training and a job. And in other words, there’s these oscillating rhythms. I don’t know of an industry where you could finish college today, start work and stop learning. That’s that’s just not reality. We need lifelong learners. whatever field you’re in, or industry, there’s continuing education, there’s lifelong development that has to take place. And that’s part of what we try to equip people for at Jessup is to help them not just, you know, know what to know, but know how to learn and how to gain knowledge, critical thinking, all those skills, those serve you for the rest of your life. And even though you didn’t have no idea why didn’t want to go to college except to play ball. When you really relate to, you know, you you learn stuff while you were in school that you’ve used the rest of your life, even though you thought you weren’t paying attention. You know, it has a way of benefiting you over time.
Zachary Leighton
Yeah. Yeah. So as you guys think about these shifts and trends, and how this all and watch how this is all playing out, how are you preparing for those shifts, maybe over the next 510 years, like you’ve that’s one thing to try to remain consistent in cost and everything, but are there some innovative ways that you’re trying to take advantage of digital and to prepare for the changes that are coming?
John
Let me give you two or three pathways that we’re exploring right now. And some of our colleagues and friends in the industry are doing this as well. But during COVID, what we found is a lot of adults who never before access, digital education, were all of a sudden, you know, they’re at home. And so they’re signing up for master class they’re signing up for for video instructional experiences. So we began to experiment with and we’re having amazing success. With this. First idea, I’m going to tell you, a lot of times, Zack, when we say online education, people think of what we describe as asynchronous. Professor records lectures, I listen to the lectures, I do my reading, I participate in the chat room, and leave my comments. And then I write a paper or take a test and I’m done. There’s no real human to human interaction. So what we’re doing and we still have that we certainly have that available, we do a thing called synchronous remote education. Which means you me and 10 other people are in a class on business ethics, or on a class in the gospels were on a class about eschatology. We’re on a class about apologetics, we’re on a class about English or history. But we’re in that class. And all or a substantial part portion of it is remote and synchronous. It’s five o’clock Tuesday night or six o’clock, instead of drive into the campus. You’re online in a zoom or some other form of simultaneous room, what people are telling us back is that feels to them like it’s digital. But it’s also simultaneous. So people are actually developing relationships. People are feeling like I’m having this human contact, even though it’s, it’s not the same as being in a physical room. But it’s a great use of technology. So now I’m not driving to campus, got to get a babysitter for the kids and all that I can have the kids kind of occupying themselves in another room, and I can do this for an hour or two online. So that’s one use synchronous remote education. That’s one. Here’s here’s a second one. This one’s a little bit more out there, Zack. So let’s just get ready. What What CSU is doing in an experimental format, I actually think is key to the future. You probably remember this phrase, the idea of software as service, where now instead of buying a software program for 200 300 500, you know, $2,000, what you do is you pay a monthly cost depending on the capacities of the software, it’s software service, you’re paying for it monthly, the updates happen automatically. And it’s all in what we today would call the cloud. Well, I think the future of higher ed financially is a subscription base. It’s it’s higher education. As a subscription based service, I think in time, because of the demand for lifelong learning, for instance, a Jessup alum, what I want, I’m 61. So before I retire, I want whatever however many years that is, I want a Jessup alum to have lifelong access to Jessup learning resources. And I want that to be a digital subscription, where they have a forever relationship with Jessup. I’m not saying all tuition will go away. But I think long term digital is going to allow us to provide resources we can provide access to this conversation. We have theologians and scientists and philosophers, we can provide access to those things digitally, in a repository with a subscription base, you look at what’s happened to your television, you know, you’re you, you probably have a few networks on your local station. But other than that, you’re subscribing. And it’s frustrating. And we all get aggravated by it. But you got to decide which subscription services you want to access. And then you become part of that larger community. So subscription service, or education as a subscription service would be number two. Here’s a third one. Zach, we used to say, Okay, this whole remote business, this whole online, this digital thing. All right, that’s fine if you’re maybe going to do a history class or English class, but you cannot do sciences remotely. And guess what, Zack? Because we’re seeing things like virtual reality. Because we’re seeing things like artificial intelligence and machine learning. And I know this is scary, it’s scary for me. But what we learned during COVID, is you actually can do science remotely, you can have students set up with things and their sight, and then you can walk them through things digitally, and they can have a form of a lab experience. Well, now with virtual reality, what I predict, you’re going to see people doing anatomy and physiology, virtually, you’re going to see people doing the sciences virtually, you’re also going to see in business classes, virtual simulations, where you’ll be in a corporate boardroom having a conversation making a presentation, in a virtual reality. I know that’s scary. It’s scary for me, but I’m telling you, it’s here. And it’s on its way. So that’s, that’s another way where I think digital is going to take place. Now, having said all that, Zach. So I’m a futurist, I enjoy thinking about those things. But having said all that, if you and I are doing this digitally, if we were in the same room together physically, and we could connect, physically, there’s something different about that. I never believe that virtual reality that digital access will replace human to human contact. In fact, I think the more digital we have, the more desperate people are for the face to face contact. Maybe not in a crowd, but one to one, we want it we want to be in a small group experience with real people. Flesh and blood.
Zachary Leighton
Yeah. We think a lot about that from a, from a digital experience for disciple making is that can you actually make reproducing disciples in a digital space? There’s a lot of organizations and ministries that we’ve talked to that would argue that you can and are doing some really cool innovative stuff towards that. But man, I as a digital guy, like that’s, this is the place that we play in. I struggle with that. It’s hard. Yes. I don’t know. I’m not I’m not convinced I have not seen it actually work now. Digital opens up incredible opportunities for engagement. And that’s one of the things that you said, with your synchronous remote education stuff. That kind of piqued my interest is it’s good to see that you guys are thinking through that and and innovating in that space from in a digital engagement type conversation because what I see most within the church is we’re just broadcasting we’re broadcasting broadcasting broadcasting. We’re not using digital for the social engagement opportunities that lie within it. And so, man, there’s incredible opportunities in digital to engage with people, especially unengaged and unreached peoples. But whether or not we can take that engagement and turn it into true, real face to face digital disciplemaking opportunity? I don’t know, I’m convinced it’s,
John
well, again, I don’t have an answer either. You’re a little bit like me, if you think about telehealth, it’s great to know that a doctor could talk to you that you can take a picture of what you’re feeling like maybe even the pic take a picture of the inside of your throat, maybe someday, we’ll have some of that. But you know, what, if my appendix is burst, I’m going to the hospital with a person. So I’m gonna use this if I’m a disciple, and we’re having a conversation, and maybe I just tell you about an area of sin I’m struggling with or I tell you about an area of like, I don’t understand this Bible passage? Well, I think there’s a lot that can happen digitally? Well, I don’t know if there’s anything like somebody praying with you and giving you a hug? Like, how does that happen digitally? What does that mean to weep with those who weep and mourn with those who mourn and Zach, you know, I’m I know, I’m old. I use technology, and I appreciate technology. But I’ll tell you what, I I just think there’s something that technology and I can’t even imagine I’ve used some VR, I can’t imagine virtual reality or augmented reality, in any way, shape, or form, replacing it. It’s a wonderful tool, which I want to say some kind of as a warning, it’s a wonderful tool. I also am very aware that virtual reality and augmented reality will probably take the problem of pornography. Oh, my goodness level to the nth degree. And as a pastor and as a father, and a husband very burdened about that for our culture.
Zachary Leighton
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s going to be really interesting to see what happens. I mean, you already have one and the question that we that we’re trying to think through from a minute from our ministries perspective, is digital is this really incredible opportunity to engage. And I believe that we have, the church has to be functional in that space, we have to be relevant in that space. Because the reality is, and this reality is ever increasing. More and more every single day, people are spending more and more time in these places. This is where people hang out, right? Eight plus hours a day right now is the twisted statistics, when VR hits that will be significantly worse. This is where the unreached and unengaged are spending their time. It’s where much of the church is spending its time. And like it or not, like that’s just the reality. And so, if we are if our theology says that we are to go and meet people where they’re at in the same way Christ comes and meets us in our brokenness, and in our depravity, right, our theology would say that, but our behaviors and digital don’t act that way. We’re not acting that way, as a global body. And so, man, there’s incredible opportunities to meet people and engage with people and build relationships in these places. I see that how do you? How do you balance that between? Man there’s credible opportunity, but it is so dangerous? And I don’t have the answer.
John
This might be one of the ways to think about it. Let me use Jesus first. And then I’ll move to the first century and then to present, Jesus met the woman at the well at the well. So Jesus was at the well on purpose. Now he’s Jesus, but he was there with the redemptive presence of the Father, meeting that woman who had a tawdry past who had all kinds of challenges. And that woman became an amazing evangelist for her town. He was at the well. Now, let me fast forward if you’re in Corinth, or Ephesus in the first century, and you got nothing to say, to the culture of Temple prostitution, then you’re not engaging with a ton of the culture. So So what do you do? You got to be able to hear the body of Christ and Corinth or Ephesus the first century to say, Do Do I have a love for the tragic reality of those women who are involved in temple prostitution? Do I have a love for the tragedy of those men who are going into the temple prostitutes? And if you don’t have a redemptive sense of assignment there, and if you don’t have clarity, that that’s part of who God longs for you to reach that’s in my mind a great commission problem. Now fast forward. Now we’re in our culture, name, your town, name, your city name, the issue, whatever’s going on in your particular community. I think first of all, we have to disciple people deeply. And Zach, one of my one of my contentions about CO COVID is that COVID was revealer. And it revealed the shallowness of discipleship and the American church. Now, I just want to raise my hand, say, I’m a pastor, I love Jesus, the family and the church. So I love the church. And I’m, and I’m accountable for this. I’m not saying this about somebody else. I’m just saying, we in the church, have not produced a lot of fathers and mothers, we got a lot of babies, and a lot of sons and daughters, but we have not produced fully mature reproducing disciples. We are not, we have not done well at that. And COVID revealed that so here’s the second thing grow people deep. And then the next thing I would say, is we’ve got to equip people who are on particular assignment. I’ll use one example media. Many years ago, Zach, if you look back in American history, let’s let’s call it 1920s. It was maybe before then, a lot of Christians said, media is evil. You know, the talkies, they’re evil, the screen is evil. So we said, we’re not we’re not doing that. And the body of Christ, the church walked away. Well, look what’s happened the last 100 years, we abandon the whole media world and because we abandoned the whole media world guests who took over, you know, Satan loves to steal, kill, and destroy, so he stole, killed and destroyed the impact of media. Now, thankfully, we’ve had a lot of redemptive involvements. I’m thankful that we’re seeing some good successes of recent movies like Jesus revolution and others. But to be frank, we need followers of Jesus who are specially trained, equipped, and surrounded, as they go into those atmospheres and shift the atmosphere for the glory of God. And that’s part of when we have a vision for it. Jessup is to raise up transformational leaders for the glory of God and I, I hope there’s a future before I die. And before the Lord, you know, brings things to a close here on this planet, or however it works. I just pray that we’ll see Christians and I know there are many, many that be Christians in media, politics, business education, who say, I’m a disciple, I’m surrounded by people who are gonna love me hold me accountable. And man, I’m in the industry as a as a light for Jesus Christ.
Zachary Leighton
That’s interesting. You bring that up, we, I’m in the process of writing a blog post article on Renaissance arrow, the church had ownership over the arts, like everything in the arts came out of the church. Now, we kind of botched it and didn’t steward that very well. But the reality is, we had control over the arts, we had control over sculpture and painting and literate literacy and all these things drama. And when the Enlightenment hit, we punted and jettisoned all of that. And for the sake of literacy, and logic, and reasoning and science, not bad things. We just said, beauty and the arts are irrelevant. We’re just gonna focus on logic and reason. And the world took advantage and took ownership of all those things. And now what’s that quote, you control the arts or the you control the narrative, you control culture? We have no say in culture, or very little say in culture, because we have punted on and jettisoned our ability to have any say through the arts and culture. And
John
then Zack, you write that blog post? I’m reading it, and I’m circulating it because, you know, I think the reality we have a beautiful music and theater programs here and visual, performing arts programs, but I’ll tell you, the church has large and by the way, I I don’t have I know everybody’s creative. I don’t have real artistic skills myself, but I’m surrounded by people who do. And as a public speaker, I speak all the time as a public speaker. There are places that a painting, a song, a dance, a theatrical presentation, an sculptor, a sculpted image can touch in the soul that the spoken word cannot touch. Yeah. And so we abandon the arts to our peril. It’s exactly as you describe, please write that blog post. Get on it, Zack, come on
Zachary Leighton
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So when you sign up to get 20% off your first three months of management it’s interesting and and you talked about engaging culture, especially around the experiential truth, the the arts and media and we’re as an agency in a ministry, we’re interested in storytelling above all else like that, to my greater vision for this ministry is to help the church testify of all that Jesus is doing. Right? That would be that would be how I would classify and define my call. We have the greatest stories ever told, right? death to life transformation. Right? Christ comes on the scene, CS Lewis argued that he fulfilled the monomyth for all of human history. Up until that point, ancient civilizations had been telling stories, stories like Hercules, hoping for a hero that would come on the scene, to be able to defeat death. Right, Jesus comes on the scene, he actually fulfills that a real hero who can actually defeat death. And now Romans six we get to share in His death and resurrection, right? I’m dead in my trespasses in a lot made alive and a new creation, when I accept Christ and start walking in alignment with him. That is a debt to life transformation that is a significant and powerful the, I would argue the most powerful stories that we have to tell. And yet, when you look at how we behave in media, and look at how we behave in digital, and look at how we create content for that space, everything that we create, in our research, 99% of the content being produced by the global body is sermons and podcasts and Bible training and curriculum and felt needs articles, all good things, I would not ever argue against any of those things. But we’re trying to reach a audience in a world that is not contextually behaving in digital in those ways. They’re not going, we’re not going to YouTube and to Instagram and to tick tock to engage with educational literacy based communication and content. We’re going to be entertained, and to engage with story and narrative, and to check out of our real world, right? And so how do you reach an audience in those places contextually relevant to how they’re behaving in those places? It’s not I’m sorry, it’s not ever going to be effective. With literacy based communication. The only way I see that being effective and digital is through story and testimony, engaging emotionally through story, contextually relevant to how people behave in those places. And then supporting it and, and, and driving home all of our literacy based stuff, engage the limbic brain first, then your neocortex brain is ready to receive all this stuff. You talked about the woman at the well, man possessed by Demon Legion, like I point to those two stories, as significant testimony moments that prepared people to receive the gospel. So in both situations, Jesus has an interaction and afternoon interaction with a woman at the well and the man possessed by Demon Legion. In the case of the man possessed by Demon Legion, he goes, You are the Messiah, I want to be your disciple. Can I follow you the rest of my life? And Jesus goes, No, I want you to go testify what you’ve seen here today. In both cases, woman at the well and the man possessed by Demon Legion, they go and testify. They know his name, his name is Jesus. I think he’s the Messiah. My life was transformed by him. That’s it. I’m not they’re not seminary trained. They’re not educated. They just have their story in their testimony. And the next time the disciples and Jesus come through those two regions, in the case of the woman at the well, there’s 4000, people ready to receive the gospel. And in the case of the man possessed by Demon Legion, it’s the feeding of the 4000 15,000 people are ready to receive potentially right like women and children, they only counted the men. It potentially 15,000 people are ready to receive the gospel because of a single man’s testimony about a transformational shift that took place in his life and afternoon. And so, Matthew 1313, Jesus talks about, he’s talking to his disciples about why he said share stories and uses parables. He’s essentially saying, I just tell stories to prepare people to receive the gospel All right. Once they’ve been emotionally engaged through story and testimony and parable, now we’re ready to receive all of the things that the church is already doing. And so when I look out into the the, we’ve talked about experiential truth, right? What’s the testimony? You cannot argue with somebody’s testimony. Like, this is what happened in my life. This revelation 1910 says that this the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. What has happened in your life? Or what has happened in my life can happen in your life, too. Yes, right. And so this is my experience. This is what Jesus has done in my life. You can’t argue with it. There is no apologetic argument for that. Right? Once I’ve emotionally engaged with that story, now I’m ready to receive your Bible training and your your education content and the sermon that you’re inviting me into, and the podcast and all the things that we’re already doing. And so I just see this man chosen. I don’t know if you’ve seen that. But the chosen really opened up this. This world for the first time since maybe the Passion of the Christ. Yes, yes. So hey, for our audience, power cut out in the middle of that little rant that I was on. So apologies for that. If our cut together for this is a little bit awkward. That is why but we were talking about experiential truth. What is we’re living in this world where it’s not just what were the other forms of truth. You’re talking about? John?
John
There’s, there’s absolute truth and, and relative truth. And now we’re, I think we’re in the experiential truth experience. So
Zachary Leighton
if that is the reality in which we’re living, yes, that’s that the audience that we’re trying to engage with? Like story is the thing that is the only thing that makes sense, right? I can’t argue with somebody who doesn’t believe in either relative or absolute truth. But they can’t argue with my story and story is what emotionally engages with people at really incredible and deep levels, and prepares us to receive that neocortex side of the brain type communication. And in a world where are you familiar with Rick Sessoms? Have you ever heard of that name?
John
No, I have not got a little he
Zachary Leighton
and what and read his book. It’s called leading with story. His ministry is called freedom to lead. We had him on our show a couple of weeks ago. And I first learned about Rick through a quote that he made. And he said that 70% of the world is function functioning in orality, or story centric communication cultures. And yet 90% of the missions world is using literacy based communication. To try to reach an orality world. We are living through this globalization right now. Mainly because of digital, right. And especially in the West, where we have historically at post enlightenment ever always been a literacy based logic reason culture. We’re seeing that shift to I believe, I think that we’re seeing a shift in that like our eighth graders by next year, this is a stat by next year 64% of eighth graders that come out of public school, are going to be illiterate in some way, shape, or form 22% of them completely illiterate. Why is that? Well, they’re consuming video and photo and iconography all day long. And so you’re seeing the shift towards orality, story centric communication, because in large part because of digital, even in our western world that has historically been literacy based. How do you reason orality world with literacy based means it doesn’t work? Well, so
John
let me let me suggest something. First of all, you call it a random rant. But I think it is a teaching. It’s a sermon that you need to capture and put in your next blog post. I think redemptive storytelling, is singularly the most powerful reality of the future and redemptive storytelling is, is manifested no more powerfully than the power of a testimony of redemption in somebody’s life. So the woman at the well, the man with a legion of demons, the two stories you cited are exactly that. They’re Gee, I was I was in this condition, I encountered Jesus, he transformed my life. This is my reality now. And you can’t argue with that. You can argue theoretical things all day long. You can argue philosophical, theological issues. You can’t argue a redemptive, transformative story. And I’m gonna go one step further, just to push you on this blog post. Right. And that is, you have linked together brain you know, neurological reality. You’ve linked together literacy and literacy based and talk About missiological realities all that to say we live in a complex, highly integrated world, I look at it, for instance, an iPhone or an Android, you say, wow, these are amazing. They have the, the the equivalent of multiple supercomputers for years ago, and they’ve made it really simple. It would be actually dangerous for you to say that it’s simplistic. These are some of the most complex engineered products on the face of the planet. But what they’ve done with their complexity is they’ve made it as simple as possible to access. So this is where the chosen you reference that briefly. This is where the chosen I’m 100% fan, they have lifted up the humanity of Jesus without sacrificing His deity, and the humanity of the disciples and the circumstances and made it so real, that it’s accessible to people. That’s, I think, the challenge for us today’s And so very quickly. I know we only got a few more minutes, but I wrote this book called Grace ambassador, Grace Ambassador says this, there is no such thing as a sacred secular divide. All of life is sacred if you’re a follower of Jesus. And furthermore, grace is not just received, grace is to be distributed. So how do you distribute grace? If you’re a follower of Jesus, here’s how you do you live out your daily redemptive story. When your neighbor, when your family member, when that when the guy or gal on The Cube next door, or somebody in the warehouse next year, you are the light of Christ, you are the salt of the earth, you represent the life, the love of Jesus, in every setting into which you walk. And every setting into which you walk is a sacred space, you are an ambassador of grace, you are literally bringing heaven to earth. And I really think Zach, that’s the missional call for this generation. And the ones to come is experiential reality really means experiential truth means we must live with the transformative power of the good news of Jesus in the every day, say no to sacred secular divide, and say, I’m on assignment everywhere I go as an ambassador of heaven.
Zachary Leighton
Yeah, that’s cool. One, and you see with the Chosun there, have you seen the documentary that they did? After Season Three on Gen Z?
John
I’ve devoured it. Like there’s something
Zachary Leighton
there, right? If we’re seeing the shift in that generation, millennial, my generation and younger in this towards an orality communication type model, it makes sense that the chosen is speaking so incredibly effectively to that generation. That’s how they’re consuming content in every other sphere of life. The only way that makes sense to reach that generation and reach that audience that behaves in that way, and in communicates in that orality type, communication structure, is through story. And the chosen is a perfect example, right for the first time. This is where I think we got cut off this for the first time since the Passion of the Christ, the church has made something of actual high quality media that doesn’t just deserve to be thrown in the trash. I’m sorry for all the other Christian creative media that’s been produced. It’s just not good. And so, man, we finally produce something of quality, and it resonates, it resonates with an audience that is behaving in those ways. And,
John
and when you look at that documentary, what they’re compelled by is I’ve never thought of Jesus, I’ve never experienced Jesus in this way. And so that’s where you just say, Oh, my goodness, what’s what’s happened is that we are seeing now finally, a breakthrough moment, like you said, probably like the Passion of Christ. At Jessup. We have a digital communication and design major and really storytelling in video and digital form is the heart of that degree. And I think to be frank, it’s, it’s the future. Missionaries in the future may not put on a different kind of robe, they may produce digital stories that are compelling and redemptive.
Zachary Leighton
Yeah, there’s a handful of organizations that are doing some of that already. It’s really cool to see what’s going on. So let’s talk about your book a little bit. You mentioned Grace ambassador. How can how can readers apply the principles of the teachings from your book to improve their relationships with others, overcome personal challenges? lead a more fulfilling life. Like you mentioned some of those things. How do we tangibly do that?
John
Yeah. Thank you. Well, if they want more information, just as an aside, then go to Grace ambassador.com. I know you’ll have that in the show notes. But let me just say this, first of all, think of all of life is sacred. So so you’re no longer off duty. Or on duty only when you’re at church or Bible study or a surf day or something like that. You’re you’re 24/7 a follower of Jesus. If you’re a Christ follower. That’s your reality is that you always represent Jesus. Number two recognize this, God made you a certain way he gave you spiritual gifts. He equipped you with passions and insights. And so in your everyday walking around world, what does it mean, to allow Jesus to shine through you? Romans chapter eight says this And Zach, I think it’s a very challenging passage, it says this, the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in you if you’re a follower of Christ. So if I have God’s Spirit living in me, yes, I need to read my Bible. Yes, I need to pray, yes, I need to be in fellowship with other believers. But when I report to work on Monday, and I’m driving my delivery truck, or I’m going to the gym, or I’m in the cube in the office cubicle in the office, I literally have the Spirit of God who raised Jesus from the dead living in Me, so that the words that I say, the conversations I have, the actions I take, those are actually divine sacred spaces. So when you’re walking your dog down the neighbor, or you’re walking your dog down the neighborhood, and a neighbor stops you, that’s a sacred moment. Which is not to say that you got to quote Bible verses, but it is to say this, you are the presence of Jesus, the way you live, the way you love, the way you show kindness and compassion, the way you show tenderness, the way you care for the poor, the way you care for people who are struggling, the way you mourn with those who mourn, weep with those who weep and laugh for those who laugh. Those are all moments where you get to be an everyday ambassador of heaven. And I just made me throw this last thing in Zach, for us to recognize that there is no such thing as the clergy lating divide. Now, I’m a pastor, I have pieces of paper on the wall. I absolutely honor teachers and preachers and people who serve in various roles in the life of the church. But I want to say this, if you’re in the marketplace, your vocation is not a curse. It’s a calling. It’s a calling you are assigned by God, and that vocation and so I want to teach you and equip you to be an ambassador of grace. And that’s why I wrote the book. And I want to encourage you to in your everyday walking around life, manifest the love of God, the life of God, in your setting, because that’s what he wants you to do. And just has to do with our everyday life. How how we live out that redemptive testimony and the power of testimony. Yeah, every
Zachary Leighton
day priesthood of all believers, right?
John
Yes, that’s like we said, we believed in grace received back in the, in the Reformation and 1500 We said, We believed in priesthood of all believers, but Zack, I think we spent 500 years showing we don’t really believe in it. So now’s our time to demonstrate that.
Zachary Leighton
Well, Dr. Johnson, this is Jackson, sorry, this has been really a really fun conversation for me, I appreciate you being on the show. If, if people want to learn more about you, or they want to get a hold of you, obviously, you’ve referenced the grace ambassador.com And where they can find the book. But how can they learn more and follow along with what you’re doing? I
John
think the easiest way, Zack, thank you. It’s been a real privilege to be on your site on your show, the easiest way would be to go to Dr. John jackson.com. Dr. John jackson.com. I’ve got a link to Jessup and university I lead. And then two books I’ve written and two blogs and other things I think they’ll find helpful there. So all of those are available at Dr. John jackson.com. And I really enjoyed our
Zachary Leighton
conversations. Can I pray for you as we wrap up?
John
I’d love to receive that. Yes,
Zachary Leighton
Father, we just thank you so much for this conversation and and for Dr. Jackson and all that he’s doing through Jessup and the content and and books that he’s writing Father, I pray that you would continue to speak in and through him and guide and lead him as he has this, this university and what all comes with that, Lord, obviously that there’s a lot of opportunities for leadership and oversight and guidance and innovation into new and fun creative spaces. I pray that you would just give him clarity and wisdom as he leads this this organization and, and University. And I pray for the students at Jessup, that they would be impacted by the teaching and biblical training that’s going on and that permeates through everything that Jessop does. We just thank you so much that we get to be a part of what you’re doing. And I pray that You would bless Jessup and John and his ministry there. In Jesus name we pray, amen. Amen. So nice having you on the show John
John
Zachary. Right. Really appreciate the time. Thank you so much.
